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Modern birds found with dinosaurs
http://creation.mobi/werner
For those of you who are thinking about reading the creationist book shilled by Chris in comment 1 don’t waste youre time, as I did.
Written by a medical doctor not a biologist or a geologist and of course published by New Leaf Press,which presents itself as follows: “the world’s largest publisher of creation-based material”. Full of half truths, miss quotes and down right lies. As one geologist commented “Wow, Dr. Werner, did you just imply that the museums are concealing modern large fossils from the public eye. I’ve worked in the fossil mammal collections of most of the world’s major museums, and can only say that, if they’re there, they’re extraordinarily well hidden.
Ivorygirl, I see you have quoted and unidentified geologist who we may assume has also descended from ape like creatures with comprehension issues. The article questions why museums don’t display mammal an bird fossils, it doesn’t suggest museums are hiding them.
I’ve not read this book yet , but since you have could you please list a few of the lies and misquotes you’ve indicated the book contains.
Thanks
Sure Chris I’ll jump right on that as soon as you answer my questions that you keep avoiding. Go read the book yourself and then tell us how this brilliant medical doctor –oops creation scientists, non pier reviewed book should make us all change our minds. Rather than coming to this site and insulting everyone for not being your sycophants, why don’t you explain to us how creationism can do science better than actual science?
So we are to assume you’ve not read this book?
No one looking for answers should be insulted by my questions.
Chris, I gain enjoyment from the fact that every rant and rage from creationists like you is a ‘tell’, revealing an inner turmoil hinged upon a struggle to rationalise ‘what they wish was true’ vs ‘the reality they experience’.
Ivorygirl, by the sound of your psychobabble it doesn’t appear you have much to offer as evidence for evolution. You may be sold on the theory but not everyone is. You’ve shown nothing to cause anyone not to question your belief.
Chris. Let me fix your post for you. “By the sound of your methodical naturalism, you have too much to offer as evidence for evolution. You may understand the theory but we creationists refused to make the effort. You’ve shown nothing to cause anyone to question our religious convictions. There, all fixed.
BTW Chris, the unidentified scientist I quoted in an earlier post of of whom you discribed – “we may assume has also descended from ape like creatures with comprehension issues.” Was infact, Christine Marie Janis PHD, Professor of Biology, Ecology & Evolutionary Biology at Brown University.
I’m sure she will appreciate your assesment of her and bow to your superior knowledge and intellect.
That just goes to show titles can’t replace common sense. I’m sure she will appreciate you pointing her out.
Chris, you wrote “That just goes to show titles can’t replace common sense†Wow, down the rabbit hole again Chris, please do try to come up for air occasionally. Unlike the deceitful, disingenuous, creationists, you have taken upon yourself to champion, Professor Janis has absolutely nothing to hide.
Ivorygirl, let’s go back to what the article said. The article questions why museums don’t display mammal and bird fossils, it doesn’t suggest museums are hiding them.
The fact they exist is troubling for evolution. Many fossil graveyards contain hundreds of different species living today. In most museums I’ve been in, little if any reference is made to the other animals found along with dinosaurs. Fossil graveyards don’t appear to support evolutions transitional theory.
It’s apparent all of these creatures died at approximately the same time and were buried together. Here is another commentary; “Evolutionists have cast about trying to propose a credible mechanism for mixing creatures from Cretaceous to Holocene in this stratum, but none has been satisfactory and the matter has been expunged from current references to this site.”
http://www.genesispark.com/exhibits/fossils/graveyards/
The only trouble with evolution Chris is that it does not fit in with your “want to feel good” world view. All you and those that think as you, ever do, are quote from non-scientific biblically biased articles which do not constitute scientific reasoning. What is considered convincing to you Chris (pseudoscientific clap trap) and what is considered convincing to the rational world (evidence based scientific analysis) are two completely different things, so maybe you shouldn’t waste your time here, lest you risk dissolving this entire thread into raucous laughter.
Chris said “It’s apparent all of these creatures died at approximately the same time and were buried together. Let me guess, are you suggesting a time frame of 1 year and 10 days,of a mythical flood event that supposed to have happened 4000 thousand years ago? If so, I will join Ivorygirl in the raucous laughter.
Ivorygirl
You’re quite mistaken, ‘feel good’ has nothing to do with it. If there is contradicting evidence with either concept then that evidence should be noted, not concealed. Your conclusion that any evidence which tests evolution is biased biblical pseudoscientific is pure foolishness.
Thus far you’ve provided nothing convincing to substantiate your view other than ridicule. You sound more like a religious extremist than anything close to a rational thinker.
Jonathan
One year and 10 days, of course not. I was just seeing if you were paying attention. Everyone knows that these dead animals were buried by their relatives who dug through the different geological layers of strata. Each burial was done with the intent of preservation having the prime conditions for fossilization in mind. This animal ritual went on for millions of years until just recently when modern animals just leave the relations to rot anywhere.
Today we see the same traits handed down from our common ancestor where people attempt to preserve their dead bodies with formaldehyde and caskets.
Chris, you said – ” One year and 10 days, of course not. I was just seeing if you were paying attention.” Well that’s a relief for all of us; however, I do think you must be spending too much time reading Ken Ham’s blog. Perhaps you can switch your focus to Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron, who are so much more entertaining than Ham.
Chris, you are a blatant lier, every one of your references are either from a creationist web site, or garnished from non-qualified religious zealots who ,like you, have little or no intellectual integrity. Like the coward you are, you refuse to answer any of the questions I presented, you respond only with malevolence and obfuscation. Only die-hard fans like you, will keep their heads in the sand of creationism, the rest of the thinking world has already moved on. Glad your 15 minutes are up.
Jonathan
Comfort, Cameron, and Ham are entertaining but if you want to learn about evolution you need to go to those who know it best. I’m getting most of my information about evolution from folks like Darwin, Johanson and Ivorygirl. So far I’ve learned how to create missing links with chicken bones and play dough. Using a little imagination and the scientific method of course, almost anything is possible.
Chris, your last post was a little confusing, Comfort, Cameron and Ham obviously no nothing about evolution otherwise they wouldn’t make the kind of inane settlements they do. I must say that I think I have a decent grasp on the theory of evolution, considering I lecture on the subject many time a year. If you’re getting information about evolution from those you have mentioned, what better examples could you have? I have the privilege of having met two of them personally. (Not Darwin, I’m not that old). I just didn’t get your last two sentences, was that an attempt to be humorous? If so I’m afraid it fell a little flat.
So Chris, you’re getting most of your information about evolution from folks like Darwin, Johanson and Ivorygirl. Maybe if you get your head out of your ass you might learn something. Oh I forgot, you don’t listen to people with degrees and years of scientific education, you prefer the writings of Bronze Age goat herders. Why don’t you just fade away and troll someplace else, as Jonathan Smith stated, you’re not that funny any more
Ivorygirl
Try to cheer up I’ve answered your questions.
1. Who/what is the designer/creator?
As I had said before, based on the possibilities and the existing stories available, the God/Creator of the bible is the only possible scenario which could produce what we are looking at today. We all know evolution doesn’t create anything and science is completely ignorant of how or who produced what is.
How can I scientifically test your answer?
Testing should be no problem. The abilities the God of the bible claims to possess should provide testable evidence as to his abilities.
Ancient history provides evidence but it can be questionable as no one here was there. The prophetic or predictions of future events however, could give conclusive evidence that the creator in the bible is real. Having accurate insight into the future would mean the God of the bible is who he says he is.
Most of the predictions are associated with the land of Israel and its people.
Psalm 83 describes a future conflict with Israel that names each of the players who would like to wipe Israel off the map. If you’ve studied this you know that this event could be shaping up right now.
One prediction which happened in our time is the return of the Jews as a people to Israel after being scattered around the world. May 14, 1948
http://www.therefinersfire.org/jews_return_to_israel.htm
Here is a 2,700 year old prediction which could happen in the near future. Damascus, the oldest continually occupied city on the planet will be annihilated overnight. Presently there is well over a million people in the city of Damascus.
2. What did this designer/creator design? According to the bible those things are listed in Genesis chapter one.
How can I scientifically test your answer? Simple; are fish present, are birds present, are you present?
3. How did the designer/creator design? The details are a little sketchy. But there is some detail with the creation of man. It says man was formed from the dust of the earth and God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and the man became a living being.
How can I scientifically test your answer? .
We know we are composed of the elements found in the earth, but science has discovered what these elements are. According to Wikipedia the average 70 kg adult human body contains approximately 6.7 x 1027 atoms and is “composed of” 60 chemical elements. Just round up all this stuff and make you a man if that’s your liking. Blow some breath in he, she or its nostrils and if your composition of elements comes to life, then you’re as smart as you think you are and there is no need for a special creator.
4. When did the designer/creator design? According to the book it was in the beginning.
How can I scientifically test your answer?
Build a seemingly complex structure without any plans, ideas or information. That should determine if you would have needed some form of design in the beginning.
5. What would be an example of something that was not designed by the designer/creator? Your hatred for God.
How can I scientifically test your answer? Read your post.
6. How can I differentiate between something that was or was not designed by the designer/creator?
According to the book all things were made by him and without him nothing was made.
How can I scientifically test your answer?
Design and build your own universe complete with living things. Or you could make some imaginary creatures and call them a scientific fact.
7. If complexity requires a designer/creator, who/what designed the complex designer/creator, add infinitum.
Having created time the biblical creator claims to be from everlasting to everlasting; he was not created but is eternal.
How can I scientifically test your answer?
Hundreds of people who have died and been brought back or sent back to life claim that the afterlife is consciousness to which there is no end. I don’t recommend it but one way to test would be to slit your wrist, bleed out and you should have a first hand experience of what eternity is.
Chris, Is that it? Are you serious, or are you just seeing if we are paying attention? I can honestly say I have never seen such a conglomeration of obfuscating and blatant apologetics in all my days. What resemblance of credibility you may have possessed has just vanished into the black hole of nihilism. You are certainly suffering from an acute case of verbal constipation, all that straining and nothing worthwhile is produced. What you have presented is nothing less than a mindless theocratic rant born out of your self induced religious hallucinations. Oh and could you clarify again just what scientific methodology we could used to prove the biblical god?
Chris, I have to say that attempting to argue from what you consider to be an authority (the bible) is nothing more than a fallacious argument. Your assertions that your personal conclusions must be the correct ones, become a non – sequitier because the study of theology is a subjective issue (your revealed truth is not the same as others).Special pleading to faith does not constitute a valid scientific argument, it constitutes nothing more than circular reasoning (I see something that looks designed ergo there must be a designer). You really failed to answer any of Ivorygirl questions; all you did was to exult your own personal religious convictions.
Chirs, a few simple questions for a simple man –
Who told you that the bible, a book translated, written, edited, re-translated, re-edited and passed down though the past 2000 years by fallible humans, was accurate, literal and true regarding the creation story?
Secondly, why do you still believe that person after Gallelio proved inaccuracies exist in the bible almost 400 years ago? Or do you also believe that the sun revolves around a 6000 year old planet?
Finally, why should anybody else believe that person, or you for that matter?
Ivorygirl, perhaps the belief you’re related to monkeys and fish explains why you can be totally ignorant of the world around you. You have no idea what you’re talking about.
Chris, let me make my post a little simpler for you so your religiously clouded brain can comprehend. Your arguments are not worth the paper they are written on; a 5th grader could have put together a more persuasive argument. If being conversant with the world around me, means mindlessly accepting the existence of an invisible man in the sky as portrayed by a group of ignorant, Bronze Age desert goat herders, I would rather remain ill-informed.
Ivorygirl, I’ll informed you are. The Bronze Age desert goat herder description of biblical authors is typical atheist propaganda and pure stupidity.
Maddogma, Only by taking scripture out of context can you arrive at your conclusions. You’ll find nowhere in the bible where it says the earth is flat or that the sun revolves around the earth. Even thought early scientist held these views they are not supported by the bible.
Jonathan, with all respect I think your wrong. Ivorygirls questions were for the purpose of exulting her personal religious convictions. My simple answers contain unacceptable facts for her religious views.
Chris, I’m going to let you and Ivorygirl fight it out. However, I will say that your implication that evolution is a religious ideology does little to support your argument.
Chris, I have no intentions of getting into a theological debate, this is a science blog or did that escape you? So now the bible is a science book and “Maddogma†is just too ill informed to comprehend the theocratic nuisances it contains? I’m sure that you’re capable of writing yet more risible, intellectually challenged nonsense and presenting more of those “edifying†observation of yours? We will all stand back in amazement.
Ivorygirl.
You’re really pretty funny, ‘theological debate’! The only knowledge you have on the subject all appears to come from pro-atheist, anti-creation propaganda. So far you’ve said nothing which might indicate you had a clue of what you were talking about.
At the beginning of this subject I posted an article I thought was very interesting. The article included comments from William Clemens Jr who is quite creditable. He said modern parrots were found in the late Cretaceous. Here is a little about him: http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/about/history/waclemens.php. Along with modern birds, the article also listed numerous fish, amphibians, reptiles and modern animals in dinosaur rock which are living today.
Your first response was to trash the researcher and then trash the publisher by claiming their publications are full of half truths, miss quotes and down right lies. Having claimed to have read the book Living Fossils which contained all of theses defects you were unwilling or unable to produce one example from the book containing these said deceptions.
Thus far there has been nothing said in this string of comments of how these creatures avoided evolutionary change for millions of years. There discoveries might challenge the arrangement of living organisms and alter evolutions phylogenic tree. An alteration or adjustment in the scientific prospective would be the normal response if science was part of evolutions equation. If science is any part of this scenario it would seem these discoveries would be publicly noted. The appearance is pro evolutionists are concerned with protecting a theory at the expense of digesting the evidence, in which case we all lose.
Perhaps Maddogma will have the fortitude to check his assumptions aside from biased religious humanist sources.
Chris,
Though it is out of the norm, many organisms have remained evolutionarily static for millions of years (as seen through the fossil record and up until today), coelacanths and ginkgo trees being the first that come to mind.
As for the parrot fossil, described by Clemens’ graduate student Thomas Stidham, it was “…only half an inch long, was probably from a bird about the size of a macaw, and most closely resembles the lories of Australia and some of the South American macaws. It thus is the oldest known parrot and the oldest reported modern land bird…”, it is not the fossil of any modern parrot and, indeed, its status as a fossil parrot is still being argued in the scientific community.
To be honest, I hope you are done swimming upstream at this blog and really hope not to see a reply from you (though I suspect my post will only cause you to double down on your illogical, rhetorically challenged responses).
I, however, am done.