passed in house committee

Bottom line, house bill passed. I believe the vote tally was 11 yeas and only 4 nays (edited — I probably messed up that vote count. I’m now hearing it was 7-4. I’ll get the accurate count later. my apologies for any confusion.) There is more to this, though. The originally posed bill was replaced by a one-line statute amendment to allow “critical analysis” of evolution. I’ll try to write more about this later.

About Brandon Haught

Communications Director for Florida Citizens for Science.
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32 Responses to passed in house committee

  1. Ivy Mike says:

    I really hope that Charlie Crist is smart enough to veto this abortion.

    Come to think, it’s not like he owes the fundies anything after what they pulled on him during the primary for Governor.

  2. Karl says:

    Looks like its up to the courts and lawyers now… at least when the first attempts at proselytizing/indoctrination are made. I suppose a letter-writing campaign to Charlie Crist can be made, but I’m not too optimistic about that.

  3. tony says:

    A critical analysis would in fact confirm the theory of evolution. I suspect that proponents of the change might believe that “critical analysis” in this context meant “expressing adverse or disapproving comments or judgments” whereas it actuallly means something more like “A detailed and scholarly analysis and commentary.”

    Hoist with their own petard?

  4. Eric K says:

    The amendment adding “critical analysis” is in the House Schools and Learning Council, but it is not in the house bill (HB 1483) that was passed by the committee today. What’s the current status on this amendment?

  5. Pete Dunkelberg says:

    As I understand it, the amended version given here yesterday is what they passed. Gradebook http://blogs.tampabay.com/schools/2008/04/academic-freedo.html

    says “The proposal – a stripped down version of the similar measure that remains pending in the Senate – passed the Schools and Learning Council along strictly partisan lines.”

  6. John says:

    The whole video is available here online.

    Here are my notes:

    April 11th, 2008
    —————-
    A Thorough Presentation of the Theory of Scientific Evolution. Amendment Vote.

    The committee voted on today changed the bill from simply promoting academic freedom to requiring teachers to provide a “thorough presentation and critical analysis of the scientific theory of evolution.”

    Watch the Video here:

    http://streams.leg.state.fl.us/archive/MBR/H_2366_2008_04_11_5945.asx

    Starts at 1:17 minutes

    The video explains why the language was modified so that it would “Make it more Constitutional” by deleting “Critical Analysis” from the Bill.

    Or is is easily a Violation of the Establishment Clause. (US Constitution)

    1:23 minutes – Why NOT to support the Bill.

    1:29 minutes – WTF!? is that on her head!? or falling off her shoulder.

    Athiest quote mentioned at 1:31.

    ** “Mandated Creationism” at 1:31:30 “If you do not vote for my amendment, you are voting against the Constitution of the United States of America!! ”

    LAUGHS and cheers!!

    “Holly Cow they’re teaching religion!” 1:34 min.

    “The Supreme court said you can’t teach religion in schools” 1:35 min.

    1:39 Science Teacher asks questions –

    I already do ‘critical analysis” during science instruction. Why just point the spotlight on evolution?
    Why is evolution picked out as a special attention topic? “Because teachers are being threatened.”

    What words / topics do I need to discuss to uphold my responsibilities.
    “Just keep teaching how you’ve always been teaching, and you’ll be fine…”

    The whole idea is to protect the teachers…

    Public Testimony:
    1:45 min. SP Times article passed out about Scientific Theory and some ramblings about the Monkey Trials…they (Darwinists) were laughed out of court. now they are back… Infidels, blah blah blah.

    1:50 Kim Kindle – Parent in St. John’s county.
    Picked out of 18 million citizens to follow and discuss the Bill. Sat through meetings, etc.
    Discusses why the “Critical Analysis” amendment was pushed off until later…
    Academic Freedom – “Let the teacher know that it’s OK to critically Analyze Evolution.”

    2:02 Paul P.H.D. Scientist — “Framer of the Standards”
    There’s no place for religious instruction in schools.
    Mentions all associations supporting Evolution.
    This bill is unnecessary.
    By singling out evolution – this bill isolates and conflicts with the Standards set by the Florida School Board.
    This is coming from the Discovery Institute.

    2:10 Greg – Florida Families.
    Gives Definitions of Science and Evolution. “Women aren’t mechanically inclined”…”exploding junkyard car theory”
    Darwin says that “to create an eye, blah, blah, it’s absurd!”
    Quotes scripture.

    Blames violence and drop-outs because people do not talk about God.
    Nation is in Big Trouble! We are afraid to talk about God? It’s absurd. Our nation is anti-God. Anti Ten Commandments.
    America is against God. The wicked shall be sent to hell.

    2:15 Science teacher.
    What is Science? What is a theory?
    Science teachers discuss facts. Give examples.
    The standards were opposed by one person. The scientific consensis stands.

    2:18 Florida Baptist Convention
    I have 3 Science degrees and I support this bill.
    Gives examples how scientists have made errors in the past.

    2:20 ACLU
    This is about Government taking sides.
    This Bill comes from the Discovery Institute. It’s the “Wedge” to open the door to teaching religion in the schools.
    You will see more “Dover Cases” that cost 1 million dollars for that school district.
    Extreme Legal Liability

    2:23 Closing comments on the support of the bill.

    Actual Vote: 2:23:40

  7. I am delighted to see Judge “Jackass” Jones’ judicial activism backfiring.

  8. Kyle says:

    Larry,

    Unfortunately, I think you (and Florida) will be seeing “Judge Jones” quite a bit in the future. As in ” your honor I would like to refer the court to Dover v. Kitzmiller”. I hope this nonsense doesn’t spread to my home state.

    RAmen!

  9. Kyle said,
    –“Unfortunately, I think you (and Florida) will be seeing ‘Judge Jones’ quite a bit in the future. As in ‘your honor I would like to refer the court to Dover v. Kitzmiller’.”–

    It is Kitzmiller v. Dover — not Dover v. Kitzmiller (I wish). It is one of the most badly discredited court decisions in American history. It was shown that the ID-as-science section of the opinion was ghostwritten by the ACLU — see
    http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/filesDB-download.php?command=download&id=1209

    Also, Judge Jones showed extreme prejudice against the Dover defendants by saying in a Dickinson College commencement speech that his Dover decision was based on his notion that the Founders based the Constitution’s establishment clause upon a belief that organized religions are not “true” religions. He said,

    . . . .this much is very clear. The Founders believed that true religion was not something handed down by a church or contained in a Bible, but was to be found through free, rational inquiry. At bottom then, this core set of beliefs led the Founders, who constantly engaged and questioned things, to secure their idea of religious freedom by barring any alliance between church and state.
    — from http://www.dickinson.edu/commencement/2006/address.html

    Furthermore, even if it were a good decision, it would not have much weight because it is just a decision of a single federal district court judge.

  10. Ivy Mike says:

    “It is one of the most badly discredited court decisions in American history.”

    There is simply no limit to the self-delusion you fanatics will engage in, is there?

    “Badly Discredited”? Sure, that’s why it was not appealed, and the Dover school board was booted out on its collective ass.

    And the irony of the UnDiscovery Institute “discrediting” a lawsuit that they had their own sticky fingers in, but then bailed out of when they saw the train wreck it was becoming, is delicious.

    So, too, is watching you lunatics in your deadcatting of Judge Jones…a conservative, Christian appointee of George W. Bush. He was about as friendly a judge as you could have wished for, and your side STILL lost. That should show you just how weak your case actually was. Well, that and the outright liars who testified on your side.

    And one just has to laugh at the “judicial activism” tag…both because it is now aimed at a conservative, republican judge, and because it has now simply come to mean “a descision we don’t like”.

    You thumpers are going to have to face up to the reality that the Dover descision was a death-blow to your efforts to turn public schools into tent revivals. You not only lost, you lost to a judge who was as friendly to your side as you could ask for. Your own organizations jumped ship, and your side comitted perjury in the process of losing their jobs and a whole pot of money.

    The spin the UnDiscovery types are going on is simply insulting to our intelligence, and yours, too, if you would only think about it for a second.

  11. Ivy Mike driveled,
    –“Sure, that’s why it was not appealed”–

    You know very well why it was not appealed — there was a new school board that was pledged to repealing the ID policy.

    –“and the Dover school board was booted out on its collective ass.”–

    The incumbents were only narrowly defeated in the election — they did surprisingly well, considering that two of them were accused of lying under oath. Fear of the potential cost of the lawsuit was considered to be an important factor in their defeat. A lot of Florida legislators have shown that they have the balls to stand up to Judge “Jackass” Jones and his vaunted “Dover Trap.”

    –“And the irony of the UnDiscovery Institute “discrediting” a lawsuit that they had their own sticky fingers in, but then bailed out of “–

    The expert witnesses from DI “bailed out” because the defendants’ attorneys would not allow them to have their own attorneys present during depositions. Duh.

    –“So, too, is watching you lunatics in your deadcatting of Judge Jones…a conservative, Christian appointee of George W. Bush.”–

    When are you Darwinists going to get tired of that “conservative Dubya-appointed Christian” crap?

    –“He was about as friendly a judge as you could have wished for, “–

    Bullshit. As I pointed out above, his Dickinson College commencement speech revealed his extreme prejudice against the Dover defendants and ID. The defendants and ID didn’t even have a chance.

    –“and because it has now simply come to mean “a descision we don’t like”.”–

    Even a lot of hardcore Darwinists severely criticized his decision — as in this group of articles labeled “Expert opinions about Kitzmiller” on my blog:
    http://im-from-missouri.blogspot.com/search/label/Expert%20opinions%20about%20Kitzmiller

    –“You thumpers are going to have to face up to the reality that the Dover descision was a death-blow”–

    You Darwinists are the thumpers — you thump “The Origin of Species.”

    “Death blow” — HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

  12. Ivy Mike says:

    “Ivy Mike driveled,”

    Only after that night with your mother. I got a shot and it went away, though.

    “A lot of Florida legislators have shown that they have the balls to stand up to Judge “Jackass” Jones and his vaunted “Dover Trap.””

    It takes no “balls” at all to play with other people’s money. Are these legislators putting their OWN money up? Is the UnDiscovery Institution offering to pay the lawsuits out of its deep pockets? Are the preachers and Christian evangelist groups pushing this nonsense offering their collection plate change? Are the pulpit-pounders laying the pink slips on their Escalades down? Of course not…WHEN the lawsuits hit, and WHEN they are lost, the taxpayer will have to pick up the tab.

    “When are you Darwinists going to get tired of that “conservative Dubya-appointed Christian” crap?”

    Uh, when it stops being a true, devastating point against you fanatics?

    “The defendants and ID didn’t even have a chance.”

    We agree. ID is simply not scientific,and is a cynical attempt to use public schools to preach fundamentalist Christianity. The DI itself, in the “Wedge Document”, has admitted this, as did the defendants in Dover, in their own communications. No, they had no chance.

    And Larry? Tell your mother I said hello, and I hope she’s walking better. Oh, and until you yourself have a child in Florida’s educational system, why not keep your shilling, lying, spinning, preaching nose out of MY state?

    ““Death blow” — HAHAHAHAHAHAHA”

    Keep Laughing. I don’t see YOU offering to pay the lawsuits, either. Must be nice, playing with other people’s money.

  13. S.Scott says:

    Alright guys … insults aside –
    Larry, how many times do I have to link to this thread …

    http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2007/12/judge-explains.html#comments

    By the way … in this thread – Larry= ABC, XYZ, ABC?XYZ, ABCLarry, etc… you get the idea.

    I know you don’t like Judge Jones, sorry about your bad luck but we’ve heard it all before.

  14. Ivy Mike moaned,
    –“It takes no “balls” at all to play with other people’s money.”–

    Wrong — the legislators have to face the wrath of tightwad taxpayers like yourself. A million-dollar lawsuit is a drop in the ocean for a rich state like Florida, but miserly taxpayers will nonetheless make a big stink about it.

    And the way to put an end to these big taxpayer rip-offs is to ban or cap attorney fee awards to plaintiffs in establishment clause cases.

    –“Uh, when it stops being a true, devastating point against you fanatics? “–

    The fact that Judge “Jackass” Jones is a worthless sack of ^&$^#@ is a much more devastating point against you fatheaded Darwinists.

    –“The defendants and ID didn’t even have a chance.

    We agree. “–

    I mean that they did not have a chance in the sense that Judge Jones was extremely biased against them, bozo.

    –“Oh, and until you yourself have a child in Florida’s educational system, why not keep your shilling, lying, spinning, preaching nose out of MY state? “–

    You lousy Darwinists didn’t complain about out-of-staters meddling in your state when large numbers of them signed your lousy FCS petition.

    And Florida K-12 students are a bunch of lily-livered milksops — they ought to be demonstrating in the streets saying “I want to learn about ID” or “I want to learn about the weaknesses of Darwinism,” that kind of thing.

  15. Ivy Mike says:

    “Alright guys … insults aside –
    Larry, how many times do I have to link to this thread …

    http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2007/12/judge-explains.html#comments

    By the way … in this thread – Larry= ABC, XYZ, ABC?XYZ, ABCLarry, etc… you get the idea.

    I know you don’t like Judge Jones, sorry about your bad luck but we’ve heard it all before.”

    Wow! Thanks for that link…it makes Larry’s vitriolic, juvenile rant above so much more telling. He’s simply teed off that he’s been shown up for the lying spin doctoring shill he is.

    And Larry? Settle down, there, son. You’ll stroke out. Maybe you really DO need to stay out of Florida’s affairs…they’re giving you far too much stress.

    And, BTW…what exactly ARE those “weaknesses of Darwinism” we keep hearing about? No one on your side ever seems to present anything but ancient complaints that have been refuted a million times. Why don’t you just come out and admit that you really want only to use schools to preach the Gospel, and this ID crap is a stepping-stone? You’d stress less, and you’d at least have shown some integrity.

  16. PC-Bash says:

    Wrong — the legislators have to face the wrath of tightwad taxpayers like yourself. A million-dollar lawsuit is a drop in the ocean for a rich state like Florida, but miserly taxpayers will nonetheless make a big stink about it.

    Wow, Larry, you really are talking out of your ass. The truth is that you know absolutely nothing about the current budget situation in Florida, and this ignorance is evident in your statement here. Florida isn’t as rich of a state as you might think. In fact, it is currently in the red.

    It sounds like you want the state to be sued, so your infantile backwards redneck ignorant bible-thumping world view will get some more attention. Of course, you and your ilk will ultimately lose again, but then you get to pretend like you’re being persecuted, which is what you all love to do.

    Then again, I shouldn’t expect anything different from Larry.

  17. PC-Bash driveled,
    –“The truth is that you know absolutely nothing about the current budget situation in Florida, and this ignorance is evident in your statement here. “–

    No matter how bad the budget situation is, a measly $1 million lawsuit is not going to make a whit of difference. The state probably has some attorneys sitting on their cans needing some work to do, anyway.

    You are making a very good argument in favor of banning or capping plaintiffs’ attorney fee awards in establishment clause cases. It is obvious that the threat of these awards is being used in attempts to discourage public officials from doing things that the courts might find to be constitutional. Bills to abolish these fees in establishment clause cases have been introduced in the present Congress — the Senate version is S 415, with 21 cosponsors plus the sponsor, and the House version is HR 725, with 65 cosponsors plus the sponsor.

    –“It sounds like you want the state to be sued “–

    That’s true — to undo the damage done by Kitzmiller v. Dover, Selman v. Cobb County, etc.. I would like to see the evolution controversy declared to be nonjusticiable. Unfortunately, I don’t think that these Florida academic freedom bills provide real grounds for lawsuits.

    S. Scott driveled,
    –“By the way … in this thread – Larry= ABC, XYZ, ABC?XYZ, ABCLarry, etc… you get the idea. ‘–

    I don’t know who this character is, but he is certainly a brilliant debater.

    Ivy Mike driveled,
    –“And, BTW…what exactly ARE those “weaknesses of Darwinism” we keep hearing about? ‘–

    Well, there are my arguments about co-evolution. I have not yet seen anyone discuss evolution in the same ways that I have. My basic argument is that in co-evolution of total co-dependence of two different kinds of organisms, unlike in evolutionary adaptation to widespread fixed physical features of the environment, e.g., water, land, and air, there may be nothing to adapt to because the corresponding co-dependent trait in the other organism is likely to be locally absent.

  18. In my statement, “I have not yet seen anyone discuss evolution in the same ways that I have,” “evolution” should have been “co-evolution.”

  19. PC-Bash says:

    That’s true — to undo the damage done by Kitzmiller v. Dover, Selman v. Cobb County, etc..

    The truth comes out at last. You don’t care one bit for Florida, Florida schools, or Florida students. All you care about is setting precedent. You, and all of the other IDiot trolls here are the same in that regard.

    As for your “co-evolution” argument, it is nothing more than irreducible complexity, as has been discussed dozens of times here. You have yet to provide any proof, any evidence, or even any compelling reason to accept your “theory”, yet you want to claim that this is a valid scientific criticism of evolution. All that your argument provides is evidence that you have no understanding for how science works, Larry.

  20. PC-Bash says:

    I wish the state legislature could see precisely what their “academic freedom” bill is going to actually be used for by the so-called “concerned citizens” that seem to be supporting it. The state is setting itself up for a bunch of lawsuits, and these so-called “concerned citizens” are hoping to cost the state millions and millions of dollars of funds that it doesn’t have, only so they can try a different tack in the courtroom. Either way, the creationists win. Either they will finally get a decision that they are looking for (the likelihood here is about as likely as a pig flying), or they will be able to whine and bitch about how they are being persecuted some more. Either outcome is favorable for them. They only care about getting attention, since they are largely ignored. They are willing to cost this state money that it doesn’t have to get that attention.

  21. PC-Bash said,
    –“You don’t care one bit for Florida, Florida schools, or Florida students.”–

    No, that is not true.

    –“As for your ‘co-evolution’ argument, it is nothing more than irreducible complexity, as has been discussed dozens of times here.”–

    For the umpteenth time, it is not irreducible complexity. The co-dependent traits do not have to individually be irreducibly complex, though they can be, and if they are, that would greatly increase the difficulty of co-evolution. Co-evolution can also involve irreducibly complex sets of pairs of co-dependent traits involving multiple organ systems, e.g., bees must not only be able to digest nectar but must also be able to find the flowers. But at their simplest, my arguments about co-evolution do not involve irreducible complexity.

  22. PC-Bash says:

    No, that is not true.

    Well, you certainly want to drag this state into a even deeper financial crisis than it is already in. If you care about this state, you certainly have an odd way of showing it. Of course, if you care so much, Larry, why don’t you live here?

    The co-dependent traits do not have to individually be irreducibly complex

    No, but they have to create a dependency relationship that is irreducibly complex… of course, you have yet to provide an example that proves this.

    You are attempting to narrow the definition of irreducible complexity to be something that exists within one individual, whereas the definition of IC does not have this restriction. Your argument is nothing more than IC. Sorry.

  23. Discussion of co-evolution is now censored on this blog. I am not conceding anything.

  24. S.Scott says:

    Did you not do your homework? Or couldn’t you think
    of anything to say ?

    (Sorry Larry, it was just too perfect. I couldn’t resist!)

  25. PC-Bash says:

    Aww… Look at Larry the martyr.

    Had you bothered to do your homework, you’d be free to post whatever you wanted about your inane “theory”. Apparently you aren’t interested in a pursuit of the truth, but only interested in cranking.

  26. PC-Bash says:

    I am not conceding anything.

    More like, you have no response to give, and you are using Brandon’s message as an excuse to back out of your crank while appearing to be under persecution.

  27. S.Scott says:

    …AND he never even gave an example! How does one show him the errors he is making if he will not provide an example?

  28. Karl says:

    Larry is not known for making rational or even coherent arguments. Even his reading comprehension skills are extremely suspect if you can get past the inanity of it all and actually read the commentary and his responses on some entries. From his hypocritical “non-censoring blog” (which IS now censored), personal vendettas against Judge Jones, the numerous insulting comments he leaves on other message boards, and his attempted vandalism/rantings against wikipedia, Larry is just another troll begging for attention.

    Keep up the insanity Larry, fame and fortune may yet be in your grasp, but not in your lifetime, ya old coot!

  29. Laugh all you want, losers. What matters is the results — the academic freedom bills passed through committees by votes of 6-3 and 7-4. You have the science standards writing committee on your side. You have the biology professors on your side. You have the newspaper editors on your side. You have the ACLU on your side. You have tightwad taxpayers on your side. You have the crooked judges on your side. You have everyone on your side except the vast majority of the people. The tail has been wagging the dog for too long.

  30. I forgot to mention that you also have the Anti-Defamation League on your side. I am still waiting for the ADL to say something about the Darwin-to-Hitler theme of the “Expelled” movie.

  31. PC-Bash says:

    You have everyone on your side except the vast majority of the people.

    BZZT! Wrong. The majority of Christians support evolution.

  32. DC says:

    Actually, Christian fundementalists seem to NEED creationism to be true and thus attack evolution science as a threat to their faith. That is one strong motivation. Atheists could not care less if the Theory of Evolution was falsified and a new more powerful scientific theory took its place. What diffrence would it make to the God thing?

    The existence or non-existence of God question has nothing to do with evolution theory being true or not true question. Either could be true or not true and not effect the other.

    If God should make an appearence in a concrete way at some point then they’d become theists since the evidence changed and something ‘supernatural’ became part of the natural materialist universe.

    For religious fundementalists the evolution thing is the obvious part of science they get fixated with. But the ‘ancient biofuel’ they use to drive to church is not noticed as a challenge to their beliefs of similar magnitude.
    If the earth is 6,000 years old then where did the oil come from? Its not called Fossil Fuel for nothing, its got the biochemical structure of ancient plants and plankton (many long extinct) and is the product of massive heat and pressue over MILLIONS of years (unless of course god mixed it up and left it under the ground for the muslims). If the earth is 6,000 years old then all of that petro-geology is based on a faulty science as well. Along with the chemistry and geophysics that accurately explains (and predicts) how oil and coal are formed and where to go look for more.

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